Drug Driving Reform - Radio Interview with Clinton Maynard, 2GB

CLINTON MAYNARD: The state government has introduced a three strikes policy. This is still going to go through Parliament, I should add.

But under this policy, if you are a registered medicinal cannabis user, you're pulled over, you go through a drug test, if it is a positive result, so a positive is 50 nanograms of THC or more, you're not going to be allowed to drive for 24 hours. But you're not fined, there's no further punishment, it's just a 24-hour ban. Second positive result, no further action, it's another 24-hour ban.

On a third occasion, if you're pulled over, you fail the test for a third time, you cop a fine of $704, there's no conviction, you don't go to court, but a $704 fine and a three-month driving suspension. There still isn't effectively a test for impairment. Now, the police can conduct their own visual tests and make a judgement, but this test that they use on the roadside is not effectively an impairment test.

Joining me on the program, the Opposition's Mark Coure. Mark is the Shadow Roads Minister, and Jeremy Buckingham from the Legalise Cannabis Party. Mark, good afternoon.

MARK COURE: Clinton.

CLINTON MAYNARD: And Jeremy, thank you for coming on the show.

JEREMY BUCKINGHAM: No problem at all, Clinton, and g'day, Mark.

MARK COURE: G’day Jeremy.

CLINTON MAYNARD: Mark, I'll start with you first. It was under the previous Coalition Government, medicinal cannabis was legalised, so surely that being the case, you would support changes to the laws to modernise the regulations?

MARK COURE: Well, I think from the very beginning, I think, you know, firstly, a lot of sympathy to people who are legitimately using medical cannabis. But in terms of this, until there is a science-backed, evidence-backed way of measuring their impairment, as you mentioned before, we should not be proceeding with these laws.

When it comes to any changes to road laws, road rules in New South Wales, the Coalition's position is crystal clear and strong. Road safety must always come first, and we oppose these laws. We oppose the changes to these laws.

Road safety should be based on evidence, enforcement and not experimentation.

CLINTON MAYNARD: Jeremy, I'll come to you. Medically-backed measure for impairment, that's what Mark says needs to happen.

Why don't we have that yet?

JEREMY BUCKINGHAM: Well, essentially, we do under these reforms, because what this reform does makes sure that anyone who is potentially impaired is off the road. The 50 nanogram per millilitre test is really a recency and therefore an impairment test. If you test above that, that means you've used your medicinal cannabis probably within four to eight hours, and that's the window from zero to eight hours that you probably would be impaired.

So that's why it's set there, because if you're under that, then you'll probably have used it outside that impairment window. So that's the science that backs this up. This is backed up by transport.

CLINTON MAYNARD: But why get three chances, though? If that's the rule, and if that's believed to be between that four and eight hour window, and that's a judgment that the user would use, and they're found to have exceeded by 50, why shouldn't they be punished at that point, or at least then on a second attempt?

JEREMY BUCKINGHAM: Because medicinal cannabis, at different times of the day and depending on different conditions, the measurement of it can vary. So what it does is it informs people that they've got it wrong to reduce your dose. So it's not an absolute prohibition, but it says, look, you're outside of that.

CLINTON MAYNARD: So it's a bit of a trial and error for the user?

JEREMY BUCKINGHAM: Well, essentially what it's saying to the user is, look, you're outside of that, what is a very low threshold. Most people are still going to be tested positive at 50 nanograms per millilitre. They're outside of that.

So then they talk to their health professional, and they say, well, I'll have to wait longer and the rest. But what it doesn't do, those people don't lose their license for six months or a year, lose their livelihood, and then be forced onto even more impairing medications like benzodiazepines, opiates and the like, or go off their medication and then be impacted by fatigue and other things.

And the three-month suspension only kicks in on that third attempt, but I can understand the concept where it allows the driver to effectively experiment the effect on their body.

MARK COURE: If I can jump in, Clinton, if I can jump in very, very quickly. Look, on the government's own website, cannabis slows down your reaction time and reduces your ability to respond to situations.

It changes your perception of distance and time and obviously lowers your concentration, reduces your coordination and can make you drowsy. A family that loses a loved one because of impaired driver does not get three strikes. And this is how ridiculous this law is.

CLINTON MAYNARD: Mark, what about people who are using a sleeping tablet the night before? Sometimes I occasionally take rest of it to help me sleep on a weekend and I can feel it the next morning. Now, I don't get in my car for several hours. I'm doing the right thing, but that's not being tested, is it?

JEREMY BUCKINGHAM: And what about people who are driving fatigued? What about people, fatigue is one of the biggest killers on our roads.

CLINTON MAYNARD: But we can't test for that, can we?

JEREMY BUCKINGHAM: No, we can't test for that. But we certainly know what's happened when people fall asleep at the wheel and kill people. 20% of fatal road accidents in that.

And yes, THC can be impairing. That's why we've created this benchmark of 50 nanograms per millilitre, because that shows you've used it recently and therefore are more likely to be impaired. So that's a reasonable threshold that the experts at Transport for New South Wales and the police back. Let's not forget that the Police Association back this reform because they're sick of throwing people's licenses in the bin who aren't impaired.

CLINTON MAYNARD: But not everyone is backing it. Now, there are genuine concerns about the fact that the local court system is being clogged up with drug driving cases. But I spoke with on my show on Friday, Dr John Crozier. He is a trauma doctor. And I asked for his response.

And his response was he was horrified because it comes at a time when the road toll is increasing year on year. It has been since 2021. This was the doctor's response.

DR JOHN CROZIER: Cannabis, is a very active molecule in the human and specifically with roads and road safety, acknowledging the horror of over 360 deaths in New South Wales in the last 12 months. 12,000 have spent over a day in New South Wales hospitals. And that's 1,000 that are being hospitalized every month and 30 every day coming into New South Wales Hospital. Now, 50 of the deaths had significant amounts of THC cannabis on board. That's that's the clear and present situation when driving in New South Wales.

CLINTON MAYNARD: Jeremy, those stats are frightening, particularly at a time when the road toll is increasing.

JEREMY BUCKINGHAM: Yes, that was the entire road toll, which is also which is alarming. But that's not attributable to THC. There's road condition fatigue, other drugs, alcohol in that.

CLINTON MAYNARD: If the road conditions aren't good and you have THC in your system, you have less ability to handle those bad conditions.

JEREMY BUCKINGHAM: Well, possibly. Possibly. That's why we've got a test at 50 nanograms. So if you're above the 50 nanograms, then you are off the road. And if you do it three times, you lose your license.

And if you're involved in an accident and they take your blood test, the threshold for THC is way lower and the penalties still apply. And if they take your blood and there's good signs around impairment in terms of blood. So I think they're conflating two things unfairly there.

CLINTON MAYNARD: Mark, you want to jump in there?

MARK COURE: If I can just jump in. The road toll is moving in the wrong direction. And tragically, as of yesterday, 355 people have lost their lives on New South Wales roads in the past 12 months.

That is up from 336. My concerns are shared with NRMA, the AMA, and of course, the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons. Current and former police officers who have spoken to me off the record have real concerns with this.

The NRMA has previously described these changes as a step in the wrong direction. Drug driving here in New South Wales is now one of the leading contributors to fatalities on New South Wales roads. And cannabis was detected in around 69% of fatal crashes over the last few years.

The NRMA have got their concerns with this. The AMA have raised their issues with this as well. Road rules exist to protect everyone, drivers, passengers, cyclists, and pedestrians.

And with the road toll already trending in the wrong direction, now is not the time to weaken those safeguards designed to keep motorists and families safe.

CLINTON MAYNARD: So, Mark, you'll be opposing that. Your Upper House colleagues will oppose that in Parliament.

Jeremy, will you support the Government's legislation in the Upper House?

JEREMY BUCKINGHAM: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a unique and well-designed reform. It's backed by the Police Association.

It's backed by the Centre for Road Safety and Transport for New South Wales. It's backed by people who just want to go about their lives, don't want to go on the road impaired. They don't want to put themselves, their family, or anyone else at risk.

And this 50 nanogram roadside test and the penalty system strikes the right balance to make sure we protect road safety and allow medicinal cannabis patients who are not impaired onto the road.

CLINTON MAYNARD: It looks like this legislation will pass through the Upper House. Jeremy, Mark, thank you for joining us.

JEREMY BUCKINGHAM: Thanks, Clinton.

MARK COURE: Thank you, Clinton.

CLINTON MAYNARD: Mark Coure, the Shadow Roads Minister. Jeremy Buckingham from the Legalise Cannabis Party.